Yay, serious topic! this means I can talk about RELIGION!

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that's like saying, if i see my son killing a man, i won't still believe he killed the man, just because, i have always known my son to be good.
you won't accept the noah's ark story, even if it were proven because you have always never believed anything in the bible. how come you didn't say anything about my other bible passage about sargon? hmm?

how about this?
Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 29:15
Prophecy written: Between 593-571 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: Since the time of Ezekiel about 2500 years ago

In Ezekiel 29:15, the prophet says that Egypt would recover from a desolation (perhaps Babylon's attack about 2600 years ago), but that it would never again rule over other nations. Up until the time of Ezekiel, Egypt had been a world power for centuries, dominating many nations, including Israel. But for most of the past 2500 years, Egypt has been controlled by foreign powers, including the Romans, Ottomans and Europeans. Today, Egypt is again an independent nation, and it has always been an impressive nation. But since the time of Ezekiel, it no longer rules over other nations.


can you NOT believe that? :]]]]]]


i don't want to start an argument or anything but my point is, no one, even atheist cannot believe what the bible says, because the bible is very accurate

No by saying, that I wouldn't believe it isn't the same, as seeing my son killing someone and not believe its happening. That there was a man who built the ark big enough for two animals of each kind plus his own family, >>I said Honestly if they find out it was Noah's ark I'd still not believe.<< I meant it as in: IT IS SO UNREALISTIC, that I can't believe its ever going to happen, so I reject the mere possibility, as in I wouldnt believe it "they" (and who are they? "real" scientists?) had figured it out.

And how I can not believe that. I believe that Egypt of course might get occupied by another country, the world hasnt ended yet. So I dont see that as any proof.

Since you're so determined to proof the Bibel right, then how about you start talking about all the doublestandard in it?
Thou shall not kill (I believe it says. )
and then it says:

1)Children who has no repect of their father shall be stoned to death.
2) A woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night AGAIN Stoning to death, by her own father!.
3) If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. (If she doesnt cry loud enough she'll be stoned)

Also these are really what makes the lord oh so good.

4) As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Rape is approved)
5) If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Marrying your attacker?)
6) If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
7) When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion (this is just SICK!)
8)Jephthah Burns His Daughter

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

Nice huh..


Maybe you should consider this. I didnt mean to upset your faith in any way, but you just pushed at button

Your problem is that you only pick specific verses (i bet you don't even know the books the come from) without reading the 'whole' thing.
about that stoning kids to death thing, you really need to tell me 'where' that is because i don't remember ever seeing that. as for the rest, God is a God of love AND of judgment. In the OT, Jesus had not come, before Jesus there was no Holy spirit and it was the holy spirit that brought mercy.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with the Messiah Jesus our Lord.

God specifically told the people of israel that he hates adultery. (remember that he is a God of judgment who doesn't stand sin) so why would a girl have sex before marriage? going AGAINST the commands God had set? and why would a guy rape a girl? (still adultery) when he knows that God warned them not to? and if the girl DOES cry loud enough, someone is bound to hear her because she is IN a city. and israeli cities are very small, if you've noticed because even the country itself isn't so big.

Thou shalt not kill, means, you can't just go to a market and start shooting random people for no reason, or being a psychopath. But it doesn't mean that you wouldn't die when you sin, because sin brings judgment, just like the court passes judgment that someone should face the electric chair for a crime.

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for #4 you have to give me the verse you got it off THEN i'll give you the WHOLE chapter.

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#5 in the old days men didn't marry women who weren't virgins, your virginity was meant for ONLY your husband. so if the guy that deflowered her doesn't marry her, who is going to hmm? who will give her father grand kids? who will give her father a bride price? if the guy who messed up their lives didn't take responsibility for it, who will? seriously, the only thing else the girl would become (after being disvirgined and no man wants her) is to be a prostitute, i don't know about you, but i'll rather get married and have my bride price paid for than be a prostitute.
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#6 same as i have mentioned above, God is Love but he also gives judgment, he doesn't TOLERATE sin no matter the extent, he is HOLY. he has told his people what to do and what not to do (just like the laws of today) the least they can do is obey. He says thou shalt not kill, but remember-->Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with the Messiah Jesus our Lord.
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#7 OH PLEASE, WHERE IS THAT????

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#8 The story of Jephthah is meant for people to LEARN from. (even ..... know that.jk)
the story is telling you that people are not supposed to make "stupid/careless" vows to God. Because a vow to God is a vow and you have to keep it, so before you vow to God or anything, you have to THINK before you do it, and not say anything that you CANNOT keep etc.

oh and FYI: in the days of old, burnt sacrifices were an everyday thing.
burnt sacrifices were:goats, lambs (clean animals, not unclean). even today, in nigeria (and i shud know cus i lived there) before the muslims sell 'suya' to anyone, they sacrifice it to Allah THEN roast the 'remainder' as 'suya' for any one else.
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so actually...you still haven proven anything against the bible..haha
real nice.

Dee<--->Dee wrote:

Your problem is that you only pick specific verses (i bet you don't even know the books the come from) without reading the 'whole' thing.
about that stoning kids to death thing, you really need to tell me 'where' that is because i don't remember ever seeing that. as for the rest, God is a God of love AND of judgment. In the OT, Jesus had not come, before Jesus there was no Holy spirit and it was the holy spirit that brought mercy.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with the Messiah Jesus our Lord.

God specifically told the people of israel that he hates adultery. (remember that he is a God of judgment who doesn't stand sin) so why would a girl have sex before marriage? going AGAINST the commands God had set? and why would a guy rape a girl? (still adultery) when he knows that God warned them not to? and if the girl DOES cry loud enough, someone is bound to hear her because she is IN a city. and israeli cities are very small, if you've noticed because even the country itself isn't so big.

Thou shalt not kill, means, you can't just go to a market and start shooting random people for no reason, or being a psychopath. But it doesn't mean that you wouldn't die when you sin, because sin brings judgment, just like the court passes judgment that someone should face the electric chair for a crime.

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for #4 you have to give me the verse you got it off THEN i'll give you the WHOLE chapter.

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#5 in the old days men didn't marry women who weren't virgins, your virginity was meant for ONLY your husband. so if the guy that deflowered her doesn't marry her, who is going to hmm? who will give her father grand kids? who will give her father a bride price? if the guy who messed up their lives didn't take responsibility for it, who will? seriously, the only thing else the girl would become (after being disvirgined and no man wants her) is to be a prostitute, i don't know about you, but i'll rather get married and have my bride price paid for than be a prostitute.
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#6 same as i have mentioned above, God is Love but he also gives judgment, he doesn't TOLERATE sin no matter the extent, he is HOLY. he has told his people what to do and what not to do (just like the laws of today) the least they can do is obey. He says thou shalt not kill, but remember-->Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with the Messiah Jesus our Lord.
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#7 OH PLEASE, WHERE IS THAT????

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#8 The story of Jephthah is meant for people to LEARN from. (even ..... know that.jk)
the story is telling you that people are not supposed to make "stupid/careless" vows to God. Because a vow to God is a vow and you have to keep it, so before you vow to God or anything, you have to THINK before you do it, and not say anything that you CANNOT keep etc.

oh and FYI: in the days of old, burnt sacrifices were an everyday thing.
burnt sacrifices were:goats, lambs (clean animals, not unclean). even today, in nigeria (and i shud know cus i lived there) before the muslims sell 'suya' to anyone, they sacrifice it to Allah THEN roast the 'remainder' as 'suya' for any one else.
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so actually...you still haven proven anything against the bible..haha
real nice.

What do you mean I havent proven anything? just because you dont know the chaptors doesnt it mean its not in there.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

(this is truely twisted)

2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB
Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB
Exodus 21:7-11 NLT

So if the man covers her mouth while hes raping her, and ofcourse she cant cry out, it her own fault then? Or if shes too shocked or scared its also still her fault? How can you EVER blame a rape victim, you are sick if you believe thats fair.

#5 Well if you do get raped I hope that youll have a nice wedding

#6 Yes god doesnt tolerate a woman being raped. So therefore the right thing for her is to kill her. Because that makes sense. ..

#7 "Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB"

#8 Like all the other good lessons...

I was talking about humanbeings not animals.


And honestly after seeing how much youre just willing to accept from the bible, I dont think I can continue this argument. I feel for you.

Dee<--->Dee wrote:

i don't want to start an argument or anything but my point is, no one, even atheist cannot believe what the bible says, because the bible is very accurate.

I am an Atheist. I believe almost nothing in the Bible. I would appreciate you not to speak for me. Judging from your other replies I can see our debating will merely anger me, as you refuse to see any viewpoint than your own.

be careful not to impose their present day moral system upon that of an ancient culture found in Scripture and then judge Scripture as though it is inferior to their own subjective morality. The above verses were written 3000 years ago in a very different culture and location. Sexual purity was very highly valued, unlike today, and when a man would marry a woman, her virginity was critical. In ancient times a dowry was paid to the father of the bride and the rightful expectation was that the bride would be a virgin.
In the culture of the time it was the father who was charged with the covering, care, and well-being of his daughter. Her sexual purity was was representative of the fathers ability to raise her according to the laws God. Therefore, in that culture, a man's reputation, as well as the family's reputation in the community, could be adversely affected by the fornication of his daughter. If his daughter had been promised to a man to be married, and a dowry had been paid, there was every expectation from the bridegroom that she would be a virgin. If the contrary was discovered after the marriage, then the implication is that there had been a deception in which the father could be implicated, or it would mean that he was unaware of her sin and this would bring great shame the family and the community, not to mention it being a display of outright rebellion against God's law. In this case, to insure the integrity of the family, and to remove the evil of adulterous/fornication from the community, stoning was advocated.
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Deuteronomy 22:13-21
13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.


this is about there being blood on the bed clothes after they first make love and this is still practiced in many countries today. it's the same thing I HAVE BEEN SAYING A MILLION TIMES NOW, virginity to GOD and to the people of the olden days WAS IMPORTANT. even today, christians take virginity in importance. God doesn't TOLERATE adultery.
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Deut. 21:18-21
"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. 20 "And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear


This seemingly harsh punishment for rebellion has been used by the critics of Christianity to infer the moral backwardness of Old Testament ethics. It is easy to throw stones from the comfort of our 21st century perspective. But the ancient harsh example is intended to keep order in the family and also in society. Consider Exodus 20:12 which says, "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you." God's intention is that the family not degenerate to such an extent that authority is undermined. This has a potential serious consequences in society as a whole should familial rebellion become rampant.

In the Old Testament God appears harsh for three reasons. First, it was to demonstrate the exacting requirements of the Law, a perfect and demanding standard. Second, it ultimately demonstrates the need for grace that would eventually be manifested on the cross. Third, should rebellion take root the very heart of the gospel would be at risk since the prophecies of the Messiah coming to and through Israel could be undermined should rebellion become rampant and society fall apart causing the prophecies to fail. Therefore, we can conclude that this harsh requirement was a necessary legality to instill and designate the necessity of family order and respect and to ultimately provide another safeguard that would ensure the sacrifice of Christ.
Also, consider the following six points from by John Haley regarding the stores:1

1. That it is a son, and not a daughter.
2. That he is "stubborn" and "rebellious," a "glutton" and a "drunkard."
3. The parents are the only allowed plaintiffs, and both must concur in the complaint to make it a legal one.
4. He is brought before the elders of the city, and investigation is had into the merits of the case.
5. That no case is on record in which a person was put to death under this law.
6. That the mere fact of the existence of such a law would tend strongly to confirm the authority of parents, and to deter youth for disobedience and unfilial conduct.
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Zechariah 14:1-2
1 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

If you actually even took time to READ the bible, you would notice that The olden day Israel disobeyed God a lot of times and worshiped other gods. what part of GOD DOES NOT TOLERATE SIN don't you get? oh yea, he should just make rules, then his 'kids' break em and all he does is smile. HE IS A GOD OF JUDGMENT. i see no argument there.

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Deuteronomy 20:10-14
http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/journal/vol1n1/v1n1elma.htm
(it was too long to put on here, but you can look at it from the link)
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This is all ive found for now, cus i'm VERY sleepy and i have a quiz tomorrow and track. i'll finish up tomorrow hopefully.
I feel for you too.
and why wouldn't i be willing to accept the bible? when i have a personal relationship with christ? when that is one of the basis of Christianity? that's like saying "i see how willing you are to accept atheism" ---err....?
n'ways, i wasn't even getting at an argument, so..i seriously don't know what you mean by
i can't continue this argument.


@ ellie->i wasn't speaking for you.
i said something in general, i didn't say, ellie cannot believe what the bible says.
but even then, you cannot. you choose NOT to. because everyone has a choice to do what he/she wants to.

That's like me saying "hey, every human can NOT know Osama is a terrorist"
and someone is like "hey, i'm human, so don't speak for me because i know Osama is NOT a terroist"

The person DOES know Osama IS a terrorist but Chooses ignorance (i am not saying you are ignorant). The person chooses to say "Osama is a pretty nice guy, actually"

That's how i see it.



Bye.

(i'm not looking to argue with anyone).

The bible is a load of bull. It was written hundreds of years after the so-called 'fact'. It was written to be a moral and ethical guide to life. It is the original consumer product scam. The Church wanted people to follow these guidelines, how do you convince people to do that? You tell them they only way they won't burn for all enternity is to follow them.

The moral guidelines it establishes are good, but any good person could come up with them on their own with just a little bit of thought.

The Church, is a conrupt institution that has been lying to people since it's creation.

wow

I see my mistake.
I shouldn't even have started anything.
My pastor told me this sunday that this was the worst thing i did because no matter how much you prove or say the atheist (not speaking for everyone) will always argue with you and stuff and stuff, so yea. He says i shouldn't try to prove the bible or Prove God. so i'll just live it at that.

[quote="Unsubscribe."]

ElenaCH wrote:

Well it says: this may be Noah's ark

i don't want to start an argument or anything but my point is, no one, even atheist cannot believe what the bible says, because the bible is very accurate.

Actually the Bible's not always super accurate. And it has a lot of double standards. Ans some things that happened in the Bible are so improbable. I'm not saying it's all fake, but I certainly don't believe in all the miracles.

Cuss 10 Hudson wrote:

The bible is a load of bull. It was written hundreds of years after the so-called 'fact'. It was written to be a moral and ethical guide to life. It is the original consumer product scam. The Church wanted people to follow these guidelines, how do you convince people to do that? You tell them they only way they won't burn for all enternity is to follow them.

The moral guidelines it establishes are good, but any good person could come up with them on their own with just a little bit of thought.

The Church, is a conrupt institution that has been lying to people since it's creation.

I agree with u!!!!

Kirsten wrote:

The bible is a load of bull. It was written hundreds of years after the so-called 'fact'. It was written to be a moral and ethical guide to life. It is the original consumer product scam. The Church wanted people to follow these guidelines, how do you convince people to do that? You tell them they only way they won't burn for all enternity is to follow them.

The moral guidelines it establishes are good, but any good person could come up with them on their own with just a little bit of thought.

The Church, is a conrupt institution that has been lying to people since it's creation.

I agree, although you don't have to put it quite so aggressively, people don't really need the bible, or any other religious text for that matter because anyone with their head on strait would be able to come up with those morals themselves. From my perspective, all the bible does is scare you into following those morals by threatening you with hell or rewarding you with heaven.

I don't see how people can be so hard set in one religion or the other, not allowing for the possibility that the other side might be partially correct. No one really knows what is true when it comes to higher powers (whether they exist or not), so it seems a bit silly to become angry with each other for stating religious ideas.

After reading everything it seems the basic form of this argument is "I dislike what's in the Bible; therefore God does not exist" countered by "Here's an explanation for what's in the Bible; therefore God does exist".

Both are a little flawed. Whether or not you agree with what's in the Bible doesn't mean there's no God or he's wrong. In those times that the Bible was written, such actions were acceptable. Other cultures did it as well(forced marriage and stoning). They're not okay now, but that's because society has changed.

For those who are defending the Bible, you're all hypocrites. You can't say someone has to believe in God and let him into their hearts, etc, etc, and then pick and choose which of his laws to follow. How many of your patents had private vegetable gardens at home? Unacceptable. How many of you girls went to church while on your period? Unacceptable. How many of you have felt lustful thoughts about an actor, celebrity, guy/girl in your class, or even a fantasy boyfriend? Absolutely unacceptable to God.

Back to non-believers. Since society has changed so much to where many of the laws of God are unacceptable, it can easily be said that society is what is flawed, and not the laws. Comparing them to what is "right" or "wrong" today doesn't count for much.

Also keep in mind that the Bible was written by men. Though it may be "The Word of God" it still has been re-written many, many times throughout the ages, and the majority of the books that were written for the Bible aren't even included in the final edition. here's a list of other books that are not included.

On the other hand, as this article so well explains, there's a reason why many of them were left out. This also explains the common misconception that all the books were written hundreds of years after the fact. Rather, they were assembled at a later date into a proper order, and those books whose authenticity were doubted were left out.

Just for fun, some other abominations unto the Lord: Wearing blended clothing(Leviticus 19:19), rare steaks/burgers (Leviticus 19:26), shaving sideburns(Leviticus 19:27 and Leviticus 23:3), tattoos (Leviticus 19:28 ), working on Saturday(not Sunday. Saturday is the Sabbath) (Leviticus 19:30), Bacon (Leviticus 11:7), going to church less than two months after giving birth to a girl (Leviticus 12:5), making offerings to God when you have a deformity of any sort (Leviticus 21:17-23).

The above post was all over the place. I apologize, but I disagree with both sides of the argument.

I agree that the logic of "the bible is good\the bible is bad means that there is\is not a god" is flawed, i simply stated that I find some of the main ideas of the bible to be a little silly.

(I'm not sure if I'm part of the group you were addressing, so if I wasn't just ignore this comment)

Tara Alley wrote:

I agree that the logic of "the bible is good\the bible is bad means that there is\is not a god" is flawed, i simply stated that I find some of the main ideas of the bible to be a little silly.

(I'm not sure if I'm part of the group you were addressing, so if I wasn't just ignore this comment)

I wasn't really to any on person. More just throwing my thoughts on the issue out there:)